But that's just my opinion. To each his or her own.
Well... technically you can say that about everything in an mmo. Each quest is essentially a repeat of another quest just wrapped in the a different skin, same with pvp etc etc.... Its kind of a hollow arguement. On either side. Its just... content.

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The reality is that we are already paying for everything. New classes are generally released with expansions that you would have to buy separately anyway. By detatching them from a package deal and offering them as an individual item just gives players another option.
True. But the Microtransactions even in Lotro are designed to make you pay more. Look, business are NOT out to give you a deal. Some bare bones research shows, as by another gentleman in the thread that they are designed to have you pay more for the same amount. Its a scam. Pure and simple. They hook you with the lite version. And you wind up paying a sub anyway. And on top of that, you wind up paying a microtrans for whatever it is you want... since its not included in the Sub. Just because you can stop paying at some point, doesnt make it a better deal. You can still stop paying a sub. You just dont have to pay for the rest of the crap if you choose to resub.

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I play on Landroval, which is one of the busiest servers. At no time have I had to wait in a queue... Well, exccept for about the first month. But since then, I've been able to log in whenever I want to with no wait time. That might change when a new batch of content hits, and everybody and his father's brother's nephew's cousin's room mate is hitting the game to check it out. But then, you run into similar issues with sub-based games at such times as well. If it isn't a login queue, then it is massive lag, or the server crashes or whatnot.
The point wasnt so much as that there is a huge in que time in Lotro. There isnt. The point was, that if you are free 2 play you are a second class citizen along for the ride. You get less priority for login. You get no customer service. You get absolutely nothing, but the right to install their game and attempt to play it up to a certain point. At which point you will have to decide if you want to pay for it. Its just an unlimited free trial. Thats all. There is NO such thing as Free 2 Play. Quite frankly, you are just free 2 pay.

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Unless I am mistaken, you still have to be a subscriber to be able to do PvMP. It's not a part of the game that interests me in the slightest so I don't know if they changed it.
Yes you do. You have to be a VIP subscriber *highest level of sub* or pay for it. So yeah, that was an included aspect in the sub model. Now you have the choice to pay for it in two NEW and EXCITING WAYS!!!! Which is just another way of sucking the cash out of your pocket.

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You do? Funny. I've created multiple characters on different servers, and they've all got gold. Maybe it is because I was originally a subscriber. I know that there are perks that previous subscribers have. That may be one of them. Perhaps I should create a brand new account and really do some personal research. But I have not had to pay to unlock gold.
Nope. Wait. Yep. Er.. WAIT. I meant you have a gold lock on your character depending on what level of Sub you choose to buy. Yeah. Thats what I meant. I think. Im pretty sure. AH crap. FULL SPEED AHEAD!!! RAMMING SPEED!! (I am in a pirate mood today.)

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I did, however, have to pay to unlock auction house slots.
Another thing that was included in a sub...... and how much did you pay? Five bucks. a dollar.... except you can only buy points in x amoutn of bulk...a nd you can only spend them as you earn them if you have a certain sub..... so yeah... yet again, another way to suck you in.

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In all fairness, though. Even if a raw P2P account HAS to pay to unlock gold pieces, If all they play is the core content, then there is nothing that they would need to buy that costs more than 999s and 99c. Unless the seller is ripping them off. The quest reward gear is good enough. And if one does the Fellowship quests, his gear reward is actually better than crafted gear anyway. There is no money sink in the game that I have encountered that is so steep as to require a full gold piece.
Ill take your word on that. I got about... mid level in the game. Its..... Im sorry, but its not that great.

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The thing is, they want people to subscribe. And really, when able to come to the conclusion you just stated, most people realize that they come off better if they do. Unless they simply do not have much time to play, but want to play when they can. For them, it may not be money that is an issue, so they are willing to pay a little more for just the components they want.
Of course they want people to subscribe. Then they get your sub, plus however much you drop in their "turbine store". Its like getting married and having your girlfriend move in with you and your wife..... How is this ever a good deal for the wife... or the subscriber... Or.... the.... I think I just lost myself. But you get the point. Its the same arguement as before.

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Like I said above, their goal is still to get people to subscribe. And in LotRO, when you do subscribe, you get a monthly allowance of Turbine Points. Plus completing deeds in the game pay out T-points as well. So those extra theing not covered by the package deal are covered by the Tpoints you are allotted or earn, if you save them up. Besides, the extras are exactly that. Extras, which are not required to play the game.
Ok... bu tyou cant spend those Tpoints unless your a vip. So now your paying the normal sub rate. And on top of that, if you cant earn the amount of points you need.... your gonna wind up paying for those too... so essentially, your getting shafted.

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And unless I am mistaken, LotRO's free to play content now includes the book quests from Mines of Moria and Siege of Mirkwood by default, but stuill requires the unlock of regional side quests. The core game remains free and is totally playable without spending a dime on MTs.
Based on what their website says, it requires the purchase of the expansions.

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That is why I said "they have to keep releasing stuff that people want. If nobody wants what is being offered, then it doesn't sell. And the MT model fails. That is why it is absolutely imparative that the developers keep their finger un the pulse of the player community.
The pulse of the player community is akin to the mob. The loudest, most vocal of them are often the least intelligent. Generally coming up with shouts like... NO RAID ENDGAME.... and when asked what ot replace it with... they say something like.... SOLO stuff. Right. Thanks.... Appreciate you leading us to the promised land, magellan. (note thats not really directed at you, as much as idiots who scream for a change but their great ideas involve something so contradictory that it borders on absolute stupidity.)

And while we are on the subject. The player base is not smart. Otherwise we would not be having this dicussion about MT's. Instead companies would put out great content, a mixture of solo/group with diffrerent viable endgame trees, and charge a measly fifteen bucks a month and at the same time, produce content... because people would expect no less out of that game company.

Instead, these idiots will pay 1 dollar to reclip their ammo. 10 bucks for a freakin moronic fluffy bunny pet with red eyes, and 20 bucks for a see through horse with wings..... 100 bucks for a spectral tiger... The list goes on and on and on. And holy crap, these lemmings havent got the common sense god gave a freakin rock. Dont get me started. Ill get reported, flagged, and banned from humanity.

Again.

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People curse Cryptic for charging a sub fee AND offering MT sales (not a single one of which is REQUIRED to play the game). But I have to say that I have NEVER seen a MMO developer so dedicated to the player base than they are. Not a single thing that is going into the game now that is not rooted in a player request that was met with significant enthusiasm from others.
1) Subs and MTs are double dipping. Its like using tax revenue to pay for a paramedic firefighter... and then having them charge you for the service... Oh wait, they do that..... Well... at least we know its Widespread stupidity.

2) Its greedy. If they actually cared about their player base. They would have done all that while being under a sub. But they didnt. They just started giving players what they wanted after they assured themselves they could charge them hand over fist for it.

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A thousand charges... none of which you are REQUIRED to pay. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them are completely optional. And when they see how much a subscription will net them, if they like the game enough, they subscribe.
Uh huh. Its completely optional to play a runewarden.... unless your free 2 play. Then you dont get acess to that class. Its completely optional to earn turbine points and spend them... unless your free 2 play and then you have to pay for that.... and its completely optional to have more than x bags... oh wait...unless your free 2 play... etc etc etc etc.

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This is precisely why I want my subscription dollars to not return void. Why I am willing to pay for MTs if they cannot be bothered to keep content coming at regularl intervals. They expect their money every month, so we should expect content every month. Simple as that. MTs are money for content. No content, no money. And obviously, the content is considered worth it by a lot of people, otherwise they wouldn't buy it.
Blood sausage is considered worth it by people. People are fricken idiots. They will pay twenty bucks for a pixelated mount. The only reason MT's work is because the majority of people apparently cant ADD. AND think its perfectly acceptable for the company in question to sit on their collective butts and laugh at you while you blast each other about being whiney and entitled.

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But they are not FORCING anyone to do anything. Nobody HAS to buy a single MT in CO, STO, DDO or LotRO. If someone buys one it is becayse they WANT it. not because they NEED it. If they don't want it they don't buy it.
Right. Unless you want to actually play the game. Then you have to buy it. Thats the whole purpose of the free to play sucker model. It drags you in with the bare minimum of content. Gets you excited to see more.... but if you want more, its 2.99 per minute..... Which ironically reminds me of a telephone line I called.. I mean, someone I knew once called.

Its the same exact principle. And the vast majority of people fall for it, hook, line and sinker. Why do you think the EA CEO is giggling into his fifty dollar latte at the moment? Because the vast majority of gamers would actually pay a dollar to reclip. Thats how dumb they are. They would do it. And he is sitting there in his million dollar office, behind his mahogony/teak antique desk, with his italian loafers propped on the back of some intern, gleefully contemplating all the ways hes going to rake YOU, and ME over the Microtransaction Coals.

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What about all the months that go by between content pushes? To me, that's more of a nickling and diming scam than straight-up MTs. At least with MTs I get what I pay for when I pay for it. And whether or not they actually release anything more under that model than they do with subs is THEIR problem, not mine. Because I only pay for what I want. And if they don't offer something I want, then they get NOTHING from me.
Heres where we differ. End level content gets added all the time... say in wow. Quest lines, dailies, raids. You dont think they are worth paying a sub for. Thats a choice. I get it. I dont think any of its worth paying peicemeal for. Its a choice, I get it. But my way, we pay less for it. Your way, we pay for it through the nose and then some.

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Why do you think they don't offer a non-recurring subscription? They are hoping that there will be fewer people like me who pay attention to what they are releasing and how often and manually unsubscribe when they see that they may have to go a few months without new content. They are hoping for a bunch a lemmings who just let them suck $15 out of their account each month for NOTHING. And you know? I see every single person who screams that they will not play unless it is a subscription as falling under that category. I admit that I used to be one of them
.
Thats SOP for every game company. The manual unsub, part. As for lack of content. Perhaps you should establish first what you think is worthy of fifteen bucks. As we seem to disagree about that.

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Exactly. On this we are truly in complete agreement
thats RIGHT baby, down with the lemmings. ALL OF EM. GATHER UP YOUR.... what? Not time for the revolution? My bad. Let them eat cake, Im sure it will eventually sink in.

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Which is why I like the MT model. IF nothing being offered is what I want, then I don't have to buy it. I don't have to keep subbing and unsubbing. If something comes out that I want, I buy it. If not, I don't. But I still have the freedom to play what I've paid for up to that point.
I get it. I just dont agree with it. When basic things like capping your money, is part of the sub model... the game has hit crap mode 2000.

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Only if you want more than what is available for free. Key word there being "want"
The question is... are you going to pay a flat fee, or get nickle and dimed every time they want to release something that should just be free.

They are nickeling and diming us either way. One jkust gives us more controll over how much and how often.
Agree to disagree, I guess.

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I agree, the B3 thing is plain stupid... I already said so much earlier in this thread. There are right ways and wrong ways to handle MTs. JR's idea is a wrong way. Hopefully marketing is smart enough to realize this and sit him down and tell him the facts of life.
But therein lies the attitude of the guy pushing the sub agenda. Best to pay attention to what the evil overlord of EA says, cause its probably going to have some bearing on how the game is launched in terms of paying for content. And quite frankly, the only thing that man should be in charge of is a toll road to death valley. (No. I dont like him. At all. He is part of the reason I absolutely refuse to buy EA games. EVER. And the only reason Im taking a chance on this one is Bioware... and if they hork this up.... Ill skip every other game they produce. Which Im sure is causing them all to quake in their boots, if they even cared who I was or what I thought.)

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I guess it all comes down to a simple question. "What is it worth to you?" Different people will have different opinions. Game developers are in business to make money. And if MTs are the best way to maximize their revenue, then that is what they will go with.
Contrary to popular belief, life is not revenue. And the sooner people get over greed the better the world at large will become. Even if they have to be dragged kicking and screamin into the future..... humanity as a whole will never get itself out of the dark ages (make no mistake, thats exactly where we are) until profit profit profit is lost as our sole motivator for doing something. And yeah, I realize thats idealistic.... so sue me.

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Now if only everyone thought that way, MMOs would be far better than they are, because their respective developers will be competing for our business.

Aye. that be true mate! That be true.
But they wont. Watch as the lemmings line up to say... Its ok to charge me through nose for everything. I dont mind. No really. Im not entitled to any self esteem at all. Im just another good consumer willing to pay for the priveledge of being used and tossed away like a.... well.. Im sure you get the point.

Yes, my disdain for corporate culture is huge. Happily, people like me are growing in numbers as it is generally realized companies dont actually give two flying hoohahs about their consumers or their employess. That more than anything will lead to a change.